“It was 1989, and I was on the other side of the Berlin Wall,” said Chris Matthews, host of MSNBC’s “Hardball.”

He was kicking off a conversation last Thursday on national security and the 2016 race for the White House. He was invited to be celebrity moderator by the Counterterrorism Education Learning Lab, along with official hosts Gov. John Hickenlooper and Mayor Michael Hancock. Matthews was joined on stage at the downtown Hyatt Regency Denver by Haley Barbour, former governor of Mississippi and a top Republican Party political strategist, and Donna Brazile, vice chair of the Democratic National Committee.

The audience had just participated in a short ceremony commemorating the September 11, 2001, attacks. Speakers at the commemoration, including Hickenlooper and Hancock, talked about striking a balance between remembering the past and creating a better future, about trying to live the kind of democratic values celebrated around the world as American values in an age of routine terror attacks and expanded national security governments.

Matthews was riffing on the theme.

“The Berlin wall didn’t all come down at once,” he said. “And I was on the East German side, and it was, well, it was pretty grim, and I say to this guy standing there, in my high school German, I say, ‘What’s the meaning of freedom to you?’ And the guy says, ‘Talking to you.’”

For the next two hours, Matthews sat low in his chair, ranging across topics in his characteristic rapid-fire style, inserting sharp opinions and memories of his personal experiences into the debate.

He asked Barbour and Brazile how they reacted to the news in August that three Americans had overpowered a terrorist gunman attacking passengers on a high-speed train in France.

“They’re role models,” said Brazile. “We all hope we could follow their lead in that situation.”

“You can’t help but feel proud,” said Barbour. “You know, every now and then, the right American is going to be in the right place at the right time to kick some tail. But we need to educate ourselves on terror. It’s rare we’ll have the right guy in the right place. We’ve got to realize there’s gonna be more of this, not less of it. We’ve got to learn more about it.”

“How do we defeat the terrorists?” asked Matthews. “Can we defeat them?”

Barbour and Brazile agreed that the American approach to security still seems heavy-handed or clumsy for lack of practice.

“For those of us who have flown to Israel, all that security there is less invasive than we’ve got here,” said Barbour. “We can learn from that. We have got to get better.”

Brazile said security measures could be designed with the longer term in mind, that they should be integrated into daily life so they tread on our lives less than they do.

“You can’t walk on the Mall in Washington,” she said. “It’s difficult just to get to the post office. It’s eternal vigilance. Sept. 11 shook the nation. People are fearful.”

Matthews asked about Edward Snowden, the national security contractor who leaked information that shined a spotlight on the vast reach of the government intelligence operations and that raised questions about their constitutionality and the potential for abuse.

“Is Snowden a criminal or a hero?” Matthews asked.

“I don’t think there’s any doubt he committed a crime,” said Barbour.

“Agree,” said Brazile.

Matthews prodded. “I mean it’s an interesting question… on the balance between ensuring our safety and preserving our liberty.”

There have been reams of journalism published and bestselling books and movies produced on Snowden, exploring the information he made public. On one side, lawmakers and civil liberties scholars across the political spectrum have voiced concerns and filed lawsuits to learn more about the government operations and to rein them in. On the other, government officials at the highest levels here and abroad reacted furiously to the leaks. Their actions were swift and punitive. Journalists involved in the story and their sources have been held at airports. British officials smashed computer hard-drives in a raid on The Guardian offices in London.

Yet Barbour argued that the topic has been badly reported, sensationalized even.

“People believe [the government] is reading our emails and listening to our phone calls… They’re not told that the government’s not looking at your email. They don’t know the truth that they’re just collecting meta-data.”

Brazile again roughly agreed.

“People woke up one day to hear the government is reading our email, but you have to jump to the back of the newspaper to find out they’re only storing our data, not necessarily reading it.”

Matthews moved on.

“What will be the impact on the GOP if Trump gets the nomination?” Matthews asked, prodded by a question from a member of the audience.

“Bad,” said Barbour. He didn’t add another word, and everyone in the room laughed.

“This is getting real, this Trump thing,” said Brazile, shaking her head. “He’s getting people on the ground. I’ve been to New Hampshire. I’ve talked to people.” Her lips stretched wide in a smile.

“If Hillary is elected, will Bill Clinton — will he be in the Situation Room? Will he be an asset that way?” asked Matthews.

“I think the main reason she wants to be president is so that she can control his secret service detail,” said Barbour, drawing guffaws from the crowd.

Brazile said she didn’t play favorites in the race. She recalled that it was hard to convince people she was neutral in 2008, when Barack Obama was running against Hillary Clinton. People thought she had to have demographic sympathies of one kind or another.

“‘You must be for Obama.’ ‘You must be for Clinton,’” she said, imitating the conversations. “Yes I’m female and yes I’m black, but I’m getting old and grumpy, too, so I might vote for John McCain!”

Barbour talked at length about the crowded GOP primary field and what he thinks the party best needs in a nominee.

“I think Trump’s immigration proposals are ludicrous,” he said, acknowledging that real estate billionaire Donald Trump was the clear frontrunner in the race so far. Barbour made no bones about wishing that fact would change, the sooner the better.

He said the “vast majority of Republican voters” are for immigration reform that would secure the border and deliver a functioning work-visa program and a path to citizenship. “Not a special path,” he said, but a path where contributing immigrants with no criminal history would get in line with all the other law-abiding applicants.

“If we have Trump’s position next year in the general election, it would make it vastly more difficult to win the White House,” he said.

“Will the establishment begin to support Trump if he wins in the early primary states, in Iowa and New Hampshire?” said Matthews.

“Unlikely,” said Barbour. “The best thing he has said is that he won’t run as a third-party candidate. We all know that would just deliver an Obama third term.”

Brazile talked about Hillary Clinton’s strengths as a candidate and officeholder.

“She’s got a great combination of skills. She’s tough and she’s a good learner. She’s got the temperament for the job — a little Tabasco there. I like a little Tabasco!”

Matthews asked about the possibility that Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders could steal the nomination from Clinton.

“Sure he could,” said Brazile.

“The Democratic Party would nominate a socialist? It would nominate someone who isn’t a Democrat?! ” Matthews said, chortling.

“Stranger things have happened in the Democratic party, Chris,” said Brazile.

— john.tomasic@gmail.com